This is where I live on a daily basis--trying to live a life of integrity and following the example of Jesus without becoming so judgmental that I no longer have anything in common, anything to talk about with non-followers of Jesus. If I can't have a relationship with them because their lives are touched by sin and I am afraid it will rub off on me, then how will they ever get close enough to me to see the source of the light and joy within me?
You’re NOT alone in wrestling with this issue, Lori. And I am very much impressed by your willingness to write this post, by how well you wrote it, and for opening this matter up for conversation. I don’t wrestle with this as much as maybe I should, and I say that even as I am mindful of the late Brennan Manning’s admonition to, “Never ‘should’ on yourself,” and that admonition from the friend and mentor of Rich Mullins who, by God’s Grace, helped Mullins to stop hating himself and to experience the “The Love of God.”
I think that’s probably the lodestone of everything, isn’t it? Love. What proceeds from a Love like Jesus has can’t steer us wrong, and if we go wrong on our own, God’s Love will help us to make things right. That’s the best that I can offer.
I’m pretty bad about being a “good Christian,” I think, but maybe I’m too hard on myself. Hell, I don’t know! But then, it’s not supposed to be about me, huh? Oh yeah! I always seem to forget that. https://youtu.be/0lAIeyZ1Fyg?is=Wd7yhlGk8wH-7VqJ
YES! Let’s give them a reason to ask us about the reason we have hope in a difficult world. I don’t know anyone who came to Jesus because a “sensitive” Christian reprimanded them for being a terrible person. I think sometimes people forget that’s the whole point of “in, not of”—to bring people to Jesus. It’s not a competition to be the “best” or “most holy” Christian.
Oh, wow. WHAT an important conversation. I loved (and live) this: I am learning to listen to others and be aware of what they might find offensive but not ruled by it. I never want to say something in a way that builds walls and prevents further conversation. My goal is always to understand well enough to be able to say, "So you're saying...THIS," and the fellow-humans across from me reply, "Yes. Exactly." Because then I can ask questions--highlighting, challenging, pressing questions--from a place of WITH. I always want conversations to feel like invitations to better things, higher and holier things, more worthwhile things. My hope is that if I approach people like they're estranged family members, I'll get to be there when they return to the relationship they were made for. And in my own life, I want to keep wrestling to wrap my head and heart (and behavior) around the Kingdom principles that bring life and true transformation.
Just two days ago I found myself incredibly grateful to be someone who walks a fine line with this. I am in a group of likely primarily non believers, some with very un Godly beliefs and choices. If you are wondering, yes, I have no choice but to be here and trust in the sovereignty of God over man. Anyway, to keep it short, there was a woman who surprisingly brought up how upset it makes her (when talking about absolute truths and how to handle differences on these things) that because she doesn’t believe in God her believing family members are telling her she is going to hell. Not only did I step in to say how sorry I am that she was told that, I added that if someone’s true intention was to draw you near to God, they shouldn’t act like an a&$hole! I’m sure some Christians would be appalled and offended by my vulgarity and even my viewpoint. However I am willing to bet that I am the first Christian who has given that woman a reason to think “maybe all Christians aren’t the same, maybe there’s a space for me at the table” and that is far more important to me than fitting in any Christian box.
That's a tough one. I imagine her family loves her very much and don't want her spending eternity separated from God who is love, beauty, kindness, justice, mercy, goodness, and peace. It's good you've opened a door with her and hopefully you can also help her see that behind her family's perhaps too blunt warnings is an important truth they want her to consider.
For sure! I’m not sure what God will do, but I fully intend to continue to share how without Jesus I wouldn’t have the strength to carry myself through the situation we are in. My prayer is that by meeting her where she is and with literal language she can understand, maybe it cracked open a door that other likely well meaning people were unintentionally slamming shut.
Her family aren't being loving at all. None of my immediate family are or were practicing christians ...but l don't believe they are headed for hell. I've talked about my beliefs, which don't involve original sin . Been on the receiving end of too many attempts to evangelise me and l don't appreciate it
MASH was a fairly rambunctious show, with a lot of tiresome sexual tropes, but there were key themes that were insightful. Both of my parents served (Dad = Career USN; Mom = USMC). Dad rarely watched the show, because he found it irritatingly campy, but Mom did. So in the example given, I would have probably acknowledged the other person’s sensitivity, then gone on to describe what about watching that show with my parent was meaningful in my life experience, and then moved on to another topic.
I would not have ascribed such behavior to “all Christians”. I became a Christian at age 21, and immediately saw there were all kinds of Christians, including those who weren’t really but were faking it, and then those who had a lot of edification in process (nice way of saying they were still pretty messy and broken).
No way would someone else’s mental hangups keep me from Jesus, the One who loves me and called me to Himself, because why? We’re talking about beholding the Lord of All, Visible and Invisible, vs some small, squawking temporary blade of grass, barely deserving of a glance.
Neither Jesus, nor His earliest followers were the “sensitive” types. Jesus regularly spent time with immoral women, Samaritans, tax collectors, and other sinners. The Pharisees questioned Him because of this and doubted His holiness. When Paul spoke on Mars Hill, he quoted two secular Greek poets. He was familiar with their art and literature. When we engage with culture, are we using our minds to understand and to respond to it as Christ would, or are we passively absorbing it and letting it influence us? We are to remain in the world but not become of the world. If others want to judge me, that is their problem. I know who I will answer to at the end of time, and I am not afraid. Perfect love casts out fear.
I love this : "Thank God for the sensitive believers who remind us of God’s holiness and thank God for people who can wade through popular culture, politics, or denominational theology without stumbling so they can speak for God using the language of the times." A dear sensitive Christian I know stated that no Christians should read anything that supports a practice contrary to God's Law. But earlier she had shared an article by someone who was well-versed on the arguments for a practice that Christians consider sin, such that he was able to respond with an articulate argument of his own. I pointed out to my friend that she might not want to drag her mind through certain writings, but thank God this other man had the capacity to do it, because he contributed meaningfully to the national conversation. *** I enjoy stories wherever I find them, but some have the power to touch my soul while others only entertain. Lately I've been sitting for an awful lot of entertainment. I'm taking two days off--on a bike camping trip - - to get my head and heart back in the game, because I'm wrestling with the very things you're writing about here.
Some of the best Christian literature spends an awful lot of time on sin and darkness. Paradise Lost, the Divine Comedy, Crime and Punishment, Dracula to name a few. It’s hard to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel without first describing the bad news of sin and death. I think even in the life to come we will sometimes discuss these things, if only to better celebrate that we have been liberated from them.
I completely agree with this perspective. If someone has a drug or alcohol problem, we don't consider ourselves unloving to point that out. Humans (all of us) have a sin problem but there's a remedy. I was recently very frustrated and angry to learn my car had a major malfunction that made it unsafe to drive HOWEVER, once I got over my initial reaction, I realized how thankful I was that it was discovered before it had a disastrous outcome.
Try teaching literature to high schoolers in a Christian school I would classify as "sensitive" -- whew! No language, no sex, no magic (fantasy is iffy), no relationships period (maybe a lingering glance here or there). Do you know how hard it is to find literature full of beauty and meaning and complexity that can be poured into students' souls at one of the most important stages of their lives that follow those criteria 🤪
I shouldn't be too hard on them. They knew who they were hiring, and I knew where I was working. Both parties went in with eyes pretty much open. And they are endlessly sweet and helpful and encouraging. Literally always ready to pray with or for you, for any reason. I could learn about 10,000 things from any one of them about real holiness.
But dare I think that harboring a little less sensitivity is one thing they could learn from me?
I tell everyone here: I didn't grow up in the South (where I live now) or in the church or even amongst other people who were growing up in the church. You can trust my convictions, but I rarely know the normal way to talk about them in the churchy way, so if I step on toes, just please kindly direct me on my way.
Last thing: a woman I didn't know well but whose put-togetherness and propriety never failed to intimidate me approached me out of the blue years ago and said, "You listen to the Indigo Girls, don't you?" I was taken pretty aback; was this a purity test of some kind? I stammered that I did (I've listened to them since before I can remember, sharing a room with my big sister), and her whole countenance relaxed immediately. "Oh good. I got two tickets for their concert, and I'm too embarrassed to tell anyone [at church] that I listen to them. Do you want to go with me?" We're friends to this day, and it honestly made me think maybe the people *I* think of as the sensitive ones have their own people that *they* feel that way about.
Everyone has their cultural line, and yet God put us in the family of God. As I wrote, we shouldn't be lazy and just indulge in something when we know it's "iffy," but if we have no conviction about it biblically and can read or watch, it's still good not to condemn those who can't. I think there's often nothing outwardly objectionable in some of the clean romance that's available and yet, men and women can escape into it and ignore the realities of flesh and blood relationships to their own detriment. Video games can be part of a healthy Christian's life but if they become an obsession to ignoring serving, loving, worship, prayer, etc., then even games rated for everyone can be a problem. Thanks for weighing in.
Romans 14 reminds me that a personal conviction isn’t automatically a rule for every Christian. I can pursue holiness without expecting someone else’s conscience to work exactly like mine.
With you in wrestling with this, Lori. No extra insights to add tonight, but enriched by hearing your thoughts and remembering fondly our recent chance to visit in person at Mount Hermon. It adds extra flavor to your words to remember your face and expressions so clearly. :-)
Without sitting on the fence, I don't think of myself as being in either camp. I simply get on with being and living what I understand from scripture.
(I don't have a problem with the bits of the Bible I don't understand... it's the bits we DO understand but don't live up to that are the problem!)
In the end, when we stand before the Lord, we won't be answerable for other people's sensitivities. The only question will be... is your name in the Lamb's book of Life?
so as they say... 'Keep the main thing...The main thing.'
I appreciate your article,Lori. Great convo starter 💜 What an exciting time to be alive as we watch God’s plan continue to unfold. His Kingdom is advancing 🙌
This is where I live on a daily basis--trying to live a life of integrity and following the example of Jesus without becoming so judgmental that I no longer have anything in common, anything to talk about with non-followers of Jesus. If I can't have a relationship with them because their lives are touched by sin and I am afraid it will rub off on me, then how will they ever get close enough to me to see the source of the light and joy within me?
You are a beautiful light, my friend. You're always welcome at my table.
Someday we really ought to sit down at the same table and chat over something to sip. 💜
May the Lord work it out for us!
You’re NOT alone in wrestling with this issue, Lori. And I am very much impressed by your willingness to write this post, by how well you wrote it, and for opening this matter up for conversation. I don’t wrestle with this as much as maybe I should, and I say that even as I am mindful of the late Brennan Manning’s admonition to, “Never ‘should’ on yourself,” and that admonition from the friend and mentor of Rich Mullins who, by God’s Grace, helped Mullins to stop hating himself and to experience the “The Love of God.”
I think that’s probably the lodestone of everything, isn’t it? Love. What proceeds from a Love like Jesus has can’t steer us wrong, and if we go wrong on our own, God’s Love will help us to make things right. That’s the best that I can offer.
I’m pretty bad about being a “good Christian,” I think, but maybe I’m too hard on myself. Hell, I don’t know! But then, it’s not supposed to be about me, huh? Oh yeah! I always seem to forget that. https://youtu.be/0lAIeyZ1Fyg?is=Wd7yhlGk8wH-7VqJ
You nailed the struggle.
PS: I would give anything to watch M.A.S.H. and laugh with my late father again even just one more time.
I'm with you.
YES! Let’s give them a reason to ask us about the reason we have hope in a difficult world. I don’t know anyone who came to Jesus because a “sensitive” Christian reprimanded them for being a terrible person. I think sometimes people forget that’s the whole point of “in, not of”—to bring people to Jesus. It’s not a competition to be the “best” or “most holy” Christian.
Yeah, we can all get twisted around, can't we? Good thing we have one another, as strange as we all are.
Oh, wow. WHAT an important conversation. I loved (and live) this: I am learning to listen to others and be aware of what they might find offensive but not ruled by it. I never want to say something in a way that builds walls and prevents further conversation. My goal is always to understand well enough to be able to say, "So you're saying...THIS," and the fellow-humans across from me reply, "Yes. Exactly." Because then I can ask questions--highlighting, challenging, pressing questions--from a place of WITH. I always want conversations to feel like invitations to better things, higher and holier things, more worthwhile things. My hope is that if I approach people like they're estranged family members, I'll get to be there when they return to the relationship they were made for. And in my own life, I want to keep wrestling to wrap my head and heart (and behavior) around the Kingdom principles that bring life and true transformation.
What a beautiful sentiment well-written!
Just two days ago I found myself incredibly grateful to be someone who walks a fine line with this. I am in a group of likely primarily non believers, some with very un Godly beliefs and choices. If you are wondering, yes, I have no choice but to be here and trust in the sovereignty of God over man. Anyway, to keep it short, there was a woman who surprisingly brought up how upset it makes her (when talking about absolute truths and how to handle differences on these things) that because she doesn’t believe in God her believing family members are telling her she is going to hell. Not only did I step in to say how sorry I am that she was told that, I added that if someone’s true intention was to draw you near to God, they shouldn’t act like an a&$hole! I’m sure some Christians would be appalled and offended by my vulgarity and even my viewpoint. However I am willing to bet that I am the first Christian who has given that woman a reason to think “maybe all Christians aren’t the same, maybe there’s a space for me at the table” and that is far more important to me than fitting in any Christian box.
That's a tough one. I imagine her family loves her very much and don't want her spending eternity separated from God who is love, beauty, kindness, justice, mercy, goodness, and peace. It's good you've opened a door with her and hopefully you can also help her see that behind her family's perhaps too blunt warnings is an important truth they want her to consider.
For sure! I’m not sure what God will do, but I fully intend to continue to share how without Jesus I wouldn’t have the strength to carry myself through the situation we are in. My prayer is that by meeting her where she is and with literal language she can understand, maybe it cracked open a door that other likely well meaning people were unintentionally slamming shut.
I'll join in your prayers that God uses your relationship to open her heart to the gospel.
Her family aren't being loving at all. None of my immediate family are or were practicing christians ...but l don't believe they are headed for hell. I've talked about my beliefs, which don't involve original sin . Been on the receiving end of too many attempts to evangelise me and l don't appreciate it
I appreciate hearing your perspective!
MASH was a fairly rambunctious show, with a lot of tiresome sexual tropes, but there were key themes that were insightful. Both of my parents served (Dad = Career USN; Mom = USMC). Dad rarely watched the show, because he found it irritatingly campy, but Mom did. So in the example given, I would have probably acknowledged the other person’s sensitivity, then gone on to describe what about watching that show with my parent was meaningful in my life experience, and then moved on to another topic.
I would not have ascribed such behavior to “all Christians”. I became a Christian at age 21, and immediately saw there were all kinds of Christians, including those who weren’t really but were faking it, and then those who had a lot of edification in process (nice way of saying they were still pretty messy and broken).
No way would someone else’s mental hangups keep me from Jesus, the One who loves me and called me to Himself, because why? We’re talking about beholding the Lord of All, Visible and Invisible, vs some small, squawking temporary blade of grass, barely deserving of a glance.
Great perspective!
Neither Jesus, nor His earliest followers were the “sensitive” types. Jesus regularly spent time with immoral women, Samaritans, tax collectors, and other sinners. The Pharisees questioned Him because of this and doubted His holiness. When Paul spoke on Mars Hill, he quoted two secular Greek poets. He was familiar with their art and literature. When we engage with culture, are we using our minds to understand and to respond to it as Christ would, or are we passively absorbing it and letting it influence us? We are to remain in the world but not become of the world. If others want to judge me, that is their problem. I know who I will answer to at the end of time, and I am not afraid. Perfect love casts out fear.
Sound counsel. Wise, indeed.
I love this : "Thank God for the sensitive believers who remind us of God’s holiness and thank God for people who can wade through popular culture, politics, or denominational theology without stumbling so they can speak for God using the language of the times." A dear sensitive Christian I know stated that no Christians should read anything that supports a practice contrary to God's Law. But earlier she had shared an article by someone who was well-versed on the arguments for a practice that Christians consider sin, such that he was able to respond with an articulate argument of his own. I pointed out to my friend that she might not want to drag her mind through certain writings, but thank God this other man had the capacity to do it, because he contributed meaningfully to the national conversation. *** I enjoy stories wherever I find them, but some have the power to touch my soul while others only entertain. Lately I've been sitting for an awful lot of entertainment. I'm taking two days off--on a bike camping trip - - to get my head and heart back in the game, because I'm wrestling with the very things you're writing about here.
Oof, I wrestle, too. I love story and sometimes just get caught up. I once took one week off from ALL media and my anxiety plummeted.
Some of the best Christian literature spends an awful lot of time on sin and darkness. Paradise Lost, the Divine Comedy, Crime and Punishment, Dracula to name a few. It’s hard to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel without first describing the bad news of sin and death. I think even in the life to come we will sometimes discuss these things, if only to better celebrate that we have been liberated from them.
I completely agree with this perspective. If someone has a drug or alcohol problem, we don't consider ourselves unloving to point that out. Humans (all of us) have a sin problem but there's a remedy. I was recently very frustrated and angry to learn my car had a major malfunction that made it unsafe to drive HOWEVER, once I got over my initial reaction, I realized how thankful I was that it was discovered before it had a disastrous outcome.
One of the holiest women I know of was Flannery O'Connor. These "Christians" would get the vapours reading her stories!
I enjoy her writing.
Try teaching literature to high schoolers in a Christian school I would classify as "sensitive" -- whew! No language, no sex, no magic (fantasy is iffy), no relationships period (maybe a lingering glance here or there). Do you know how hard it is to find literature full of beauty and meaning and complexity that can be poured into students' souls at one of the most important stages of their lives that follow those criteria 🤪
I shouldn't be too hard on them. They knew who they were hiring, and I knew where I was working. Both parties went in with eyes pretty much open. And they are endlessly sweet and helpful and encouraging. Literally always ready to pray with or for you, for any reason. I could learn about 10,000 things from any one of them about real holiness.
But dare I think that harboring a little less sensitivity is one thing they could learn from me?
I tell everyone here: I didn't grow up in the South (where I live now) or in the church or even amongst other people who were growing up in the church. You can trust my convictions, but I rarely know the normal way to talk about them in the churchy way, so if I step on toes, just please kindly direct me on my way.
Last thing: a woman I didn't know well but whose put-togetherness and propriety never failed to intimidate me approached me out of the blue years ago and said, "You listen to the Indigo Girls, don't you?" I was taken pretty aback; was this a purity test of some kind? I stammered that I did (I've listened to them since before I can remember, sharing a room with my big sister), and her whole countenance relaxed immediately. "Oh good. I got two tickets for their concert, and I'm too embarrassed to tell anyone [at church] that I listen to them. Do you want to go with me?" We're friends to this day, and it honestly made me think maybe the people *I* think of as the sensitive ones have their own people that *they* feel that way about.
Everyone has their cultural line, and yet God put us in the family of God. As I wrote, we shouldn't be lazy and just indulge in something when we know it's "iffy," but if we have no conviction about it biblically and can read or watch, it's still good not to condemn those who can't. I think there's often nothing outwardly objectionable in some of the clean romance that's available and yet, men and women can escape into it and ignore the realities of flesh and blood relationships to their own detriment. Video games can be part of a healthy Christian's life but if they become an obsession to ignoring serving, loving, worship, prayer, etc., then even games rated for everyone can be a problem. Thanks for weighing in.
Romans 14 reminds me that a personal conviction isn’t automatically a rule for every Christian. I can pursue holiness without expecting someone else’s conscience to work exactly like mine.
Well said!
With you in wrestling with this, Lori. No extra insights to add tonight, but enriched by hearing your thoughts and remembering fondly our recent chance to visit in person at Mount Hermon. It adds extra flavor to your words to remember your face and expressions so clearly. :-)
Ongoing wrestling match for sure!
I’m with you about MASH. It is a hard line to walk. Jesus navigated some many issues with grace and wisdom. Someday I hope to walk the same way.
May we all!
Well said! (and not so often said either!)
Without sitting on the fence, I don't think of myself as being in either camp. I simply get on with being and living what I understand from scripture.
(I don't have a problem with the bits of the Bible I don't understand... it's the bits we DO understand but don't live up to that are the problem!)
In the end, when we stand before the Lord, we won't be answerable for other people's sensitivities. The only question will be... is your name in the Lamb's book of Life?
so as they say... 'Keep the main thing...The main thing.'
Agreed.
I appreciate your article,Lori. Great convo starter 💜 What an exciting time to be alive as we watch God’s plan continue to unfold. His Kingdom is advancing 🙌
Exciting if we rely on God otherwise, pretty anxiety provoking